When to give action???

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birdiemachine
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When to give action???

Postby birdiemachine » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:00 pm

Played in a 2/5 game at a nearby casino...myself and the villain both have near $1000 stacks. Game was loose to begin, most all of the action players had busted and the game had turned fairly nitty. Villain had only been involved in 2-3 hands in a couple of hours and is a regular at the casino. He would bide time between hands reading magazines, reinforcing my understanding that he's not making moves and only fast playing his big hands. I played fairly solid through the crazy action, but had loosened my play once nitfest had taken over.

Villain and I get involved in a hand where I flop top pair and the 2nd nut flush draw. He check raised me on the flop and being reasonably deep and the pot is still less than $200, I just called the raise. Turn makes me open-ended straight draw to go with my flush draw and he leads a near pot-sized bet.

So to summarize....
PF I raise to $15 and SB (villain) calls. Pot $35
Flop...V checks...I bet $20...he check raises to $75 and I call $55. Pot $185
Turn...He bets $175...what to do with a nitty player who isn't going to put this money in play again without a big hand. Do you gamble your stack? Call Turn? or Fold? Pot $360

This player and I will never have a history as I only frequent the casino 3-4 times per year. I probably play the hand much faster with an opponent I know I'm going to get to play with alot in the future. I play in a local game 3-4 times a month and I likely play fast on the flop or jam the turn.

Knowing my villain in this case is never folding...is this a time to "gamble". I got him to show me a card and he shows the [Kh] .

My hand was [Ks] [7s] with the board reading [Kc] [9s] [6s] [8c]
Live Action!!!
@birdymachine

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allin67
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Re: When to give action???

Postby allin67 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:36 pm

I think I fold on the turn (but agree with how the hand was played on the flop). I am going to assume you had a solid reason to raise with K-7 suited (which is a trash hand, to be very clear... but sometimes you need to mix it up so without those details I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt pre-flop).

You are getting roughly 2-to-1 on a call here - and may be roughly 2-to-1 to improve with something like 15 outs. But that is the problem. What if a 7 comes on the river? Are you ahead or behind at the point? I suppose the advantage is this Villain, with two pair or a set, check out of position if a seven drops. I would also question whether you have much implied odds. Any out you hit brings obvious danger to the board, with the Spades being a huge red flag to the Villain that he may be beat.

It's close here, but I don't make such large calls on a draw unless I know I am getting the right odds. Here, I think we are literally getting not quite enough odds, but with implied odds the argument for calling is certainly not bad.

The Villain showing a King argues for a large re-raise, but at these stakes I don't think I have the balls and investing that much money when the Villain could shove (and we are potentially pot committed to calling our entire $1,000 stack on a draw) is too suicidal. Regretfully, I fold here. Better to live to fight another day.

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Robbydog
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Re: When to give action???

Postby Robbydog » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:47 am

I LOVE allin67's post here... Plus I know he's a very good player/thinker, etc.

I would agree you shouldn't be raising pre-flop with that.

When he calls your raise, you know he's got a pocket pair or AK because of the quality of his play.

When he shows you the King at the Turn... you know it's AK. I don't think he's just calling pre-flop with KK. So on the turn it's a little better than one in three, and you have about a 30% chance, it's close. So it would all hinge on if you make it... getting paid a little bit on the river to make it correct.

So if the board becomes dangerous, you know the good player will/should fold to a large bet by you on the river. So the only thing that makes it a little profitable and therefore, you have to do it to protect & not lose all the other money outright that you already put out there... since it works out a little profitable you have to go ahead and CALL.

But you have to realize the only way it's going to pan out to your thinking is if you make a smaller reasonable sized bet on the River if you make it... (That you feel he would still CALL with his AK, even being the smart player that he is). He's got to think he has to do it to protect if you also just have top pair, lesser kicker, for example.

So there would be $535 in the pot. So maybe bet $90 - $120 on the river... something small to induce a call, or he won't call. Maybe $150. Won't be end of world if he folds because it's at least close to breaking even already. So maybe try $150 or $160, I guess. You're best judgement to get "something".

You could stay out of this situation in the 1st place by not raising pre-flop. Just throw it away or see if you can limp it in.

You flop 2 pair one in fiftly. You flop two sevens one in 150. You flop flush draw one in 9.1 A flush one in 119.
Even if it was folded to me on the button, with all that money behind... I think I would just fold and let them chop it & go on to the next hand.

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kevinh
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Re: When to give action???

Postby kevinh » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:17 am

Are we certain it's AK? My line of thinking is that he definitely does not have AK or KK, because he only called preflop from the SB. I think most players would have reraised to end the hand right there.

I think it's more likely that he's holding 2 broadways, like KT or KJ, maybe two hearts.

Having said that, I think this is a fold as well. Calling here is not the right move imo, because it pretty much tells V that you are going for the flush draw. I think the only way you would get paid is by hitting the straight, and he happens to hold KT or has K9 already for 2 pair. Either fold or reraise big but I'm hesitant to stack a grand here on a draw, needing to hit the river.

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Robbydog
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Re: When to give action???

Postby Robbydog » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:50 pm

kevinh wrote:Are we certain it's AK? My line of thinking is that he definitely does not have AK or KK, because he only called preflop from the SB. I think most players would have reraised to end the hand right there.

I think it's more likely that he's holding 2 broadways, like KT or KJ, maybe two hearts.



We are never for sure, certain. It's probably not KK because he would have to raise pre-flop to protect against AA. Many people have let me know that I play a little strange. But the way I look at it... Like you see, if I had KT or KJ in the blinds and somebody tried to raise to steal the blinds... I would just fold & give it to them. Daniel N. says that KJ is the Rookie hand. He has seem many Home Town Heros go down with that hand. And KT is just that much more terrible... it is almost more than worthless... it can delete your whole stack.

So maybe you're right, but it would have to have been one of the crazy players, not me.

With me I call with AK. I never want to go all in with it, etc. You're likely to find yourself with AA or KK in that situation. Just stay small and see if you match up first. Why fight for big money with Ace high? I even fold AK if it seems too bazzarre of a red flag moment... like a pretty good sized raise from an early position by a fairly good player.

Again, I am in the process of trying to learn more. Members are agreeing that my play is a little suspect, if not a lot... But the delema is for me.. that the fact is that I'm winning... so it's hard for me to just throw everything away and try something different too quickly.

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kevinh
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Re: When to give action???

Postby kevinh » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:55 pm

I disagree. KJs or KTs is definitely worth seeing a flop with, and probably worth a raise or even a reraise in position.

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Robbydog
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Re: When to give action???

Postby Robbydog » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:43 pm

I'M Definitely OUT Of Synick with Today's Poker World...
Yeah, members have been telling me lately. Plus I already could see a big difference between me and almost all the rest when I play out.

You know something, I guess now I hate to have to even admit it... but I even fold AQ. I only play it the last 4 positions if nobody came in yet. I might limp it in late with one limper already in. AJ and KQ I have even more strenuous rules.

Anyway,
kevinh wrote:KJs or KTs is definitely worth seeing a flop with,


In this case villian is the SB. Do you call a $15 raise in the small blind with KJs or KTs?

See, no wonder I win... I'm probably leaving thousands of dollars on the tables. Please take me. Okay, I'm ready to learn. Show me how to do it.

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kevinh
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Re: When to give action???

Postby kevinh » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:34 pm

So the hands you play are AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and AK? When that's your range, it's extremely obvious what you are holding when you raise, and even more obvious whether you hit anything on the flop. Given that you fold AQ and hesitant to play AJ, I guess you would easily fold suited connectors lik 98s, t9s, and suited broadways like KQs and QJs?

In the small blind facing a $15 raise, my action will depend on the player. Very rarely would I fold KJs or KTs, unless the guy who raised has a super tight range of only Ts or better. Depending on the opponent and my read, I might even repop it to $42.

Let's take this position, for example, with me as V and you as H. You raised PF to $15 with K7s and I reraised from the SB to $42, what do you do? I'm guess you are folding and I end the hand right here.

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Robbydog
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Re: When to give action???

Postby Robbydog » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:50 pm

You guys are making more & more sense to me lately. All what you say there is pretty good I think.

It just may be that if I want to go up higher than 1 - 2 No Limit... the things I have been doing just might not work any more.

Sometimes I do play... actually my favorite hand is J9*. I often limp in later position though after limpers. Yeah, it makes sense I need to start playing more hands.

I'm going to start studying reports and posts by BentonBlakeman. I'm going to focus on improving my options for the rest of the year. Thanks for the interesting exchanges.

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NegligencePerSe
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Re: When to give action???

Postby NegligencePerSe » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:35 pm

Villain can show [Kh] [Kd] and it's still a call... not even close.

you're even money right now, bet $5 on the river when you hit to make it profitable :idea:
"I would rather make the gravest of mistakes than surrender my own judgment. "

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