Image...is it everything?

Reports & Blogs by Rocketpoker92 about MGM Grand Posted
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I have only sat down for about 15 minutes when this hand occurred. However, I have played against one of them, which is a Rock.

I decided to buy the button for $3. The rock raised to $10. 6 people called. I, MP2, MP3 folded. 7 remaining.

The flop: 9, 7, 2 rainbow.

The Rock, who was now first to act, checked. EP1 bet all-in for $27. MP4, MP5, and button called. The Rock shoved all-in for $220. MP4, MP5 folded. The button went into the tank for a couple of minutes and folded his pocket QQs as he turned them over, leaving the Rock and EP1 left.

The Rock turned over pocket 10,10, and EP1 turned over 10, 9.

The Rock's pocket 10,10 held on to win the pot.
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I have played with the Rock many occasions before, and yes, he only played with high pairs and AK, AQ. Even though he was in early position and open the pot for $10, I am curious to know if the Button has made the right fold and has given the Rock too much credit for his table image. The button has almost 2:1 pot odds to make the call with his over pair.

I am really curious to know if the Button did a bad laid down or the Rock got away with his table image?

Thanks!

BTW, If I was the Button, I would take my chances and call the all-in bet against the Rock even though I am aware of his table image.

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Comments

  1. Table image is very important, but IMO a lot of ppl don't take into account someones table image. I have played a lot of tournaments and during the first 4-5 rounds and play very snug, i like to play good hands in position and really only mosters out of position. I find myself raising very few times in early position before the flop and i notice most of the time i get 5-6 callers everytime because ppl don't take into account how other ppl are playing, they just play their owns cards.

    As for your situation i am assuming you had a below average hand because you said you folded pre-flop. The button who held pocket queens is in a tough situation, after that flop 9 times out of 10 you are going to think/know you have the best hand, but playing against a super tight opponent who has re-shoved all in I wouldn't be too concerned about the player who shoved $27, i would be very wary of the tight player who re-shoved for $200+. In my head i would be thinking set for sure but then you have to think would he raise pocket 9's or pocket 7's pre-flop like that. I probably wouldn't be able to let my QQ's go because of the check he made on the flop, that confuses me a little bit. But i would have called with my QQ's and hope the held up

    Interesting hand tho...

  2. I wish I had a better answer but honestly "it depends." Personally I'd have called with the Queens bc that line with AA or KK just seems weird. Why is he shoving so much into this dry flop? Wouldn't he want to get more value? I wouldn't really take his image into my decision but more so just the weird line that he took on the hand and I'd likely decide to turn my hand into a bluff catcher. Not that he's bluffing but if he's overplaying a hand like TT or JJ I the to fold.

  3. If the button thought for more than 2mins he would have called the $220 all in. A $220 shove here by a rock on a dry board screams 10, 10 or JJ. If he has AA or KK he wants you to call so a Raise to $75 would make sense. If he has a set he is just calling the $27 all in. The reason for his shove is he probably thinks he has the best hand right then and does not want hands like AK, AQ, J8, J9 to catch up. He can lose the $27 but he doesn't want any more decision's if anything falls on the flop higher than a 10 or some kind of straight cards.

    I believe QQ is a bad fold in that spot.

  4. You have to ask yourself, is the Rock shoving to get called, or to take down the pot right then? and by take down the pot right then, I don't differentiate between protecting a hand or bluffing. Does he really think he will get called overbetting with 999? If not, then he is isolating the $27bettor because no one else raised. A standard 1/2 set player would raise, a tricky set player would look to get a big side pot on the turn. As played, I would put the Rock on AA/KK/77/22, but since he raised PF, I cut that down to AA or KK. A true Rock would NOT raise with TT or JJ PF from EP, so I am questioning your read of him.

  5. Horrible call preflop with QQ on button. And then even worse showing everyone how bad you play by folding QQ on 9high dry board! QQ should have made it 100 preflop even with rocks early raise. If rock shoved for 120 more then good now you can call even if you think he has AA or KK. If your folding these hands preflop or just calling multiway pots your making huge mistakes.

  6. Do you have any more specific descriptors for 'the rock'? It could be anything from a competent player who plays solid hands and uses position to a nit who plays a hand every 4 hours or so. Against the latter I'm folding QQ here. Against the former it's probably a call, especially at 1-2.

    To answer your question, yes, image is important and no, people don't use it nearly enough. At 1/2 in vegas, I've found that I can go hours without playing a hand, then play AA hard and fast and there will still be some monkey ready to snap me off with 6-2.

  7. To answer your question in the post: In this hand image was everything, because it bought the person who shoved a pot they shouldn't have won.

    @Shinds
    I'm bolding the horrible call preflop, because this is a case where you really need to make weaker hands pay and get more information. Let's go back to the original post and replay the action and I think I'm reading this right:
    Hero - posts $3
    "the rock" - who would have been small blind if hero didn't post, raises to $10 and gets 5 calls to the player who has Q-Q. So, the pot is $63 when it get to him and the only player left to act is the person who posted $3.
    That is unbelievably stupid. This person NEEDS raise right now. There are way too many ways this hand can go badly -- any A or K hits, any suited flop, any connected flop and he's left guessing. The pot is already getting big and the player has pretty good position. If he just calls, then not only does he leave a premium hand vulnerable to flops, he gives the hero 10-1 to call, essentially pricing in any 2 cards. I think the person with Q-Q got psyched out by either the raise from "the rock" or by all of the calls or else they are a terrible player.
    So preflop, Q-Q needs to pop this to at least $75 and $100 is probably better. If "the rock" re-pops it, then I think I could consider folding Q-Q. If not and he calls, then with the flop given we shove and take his preflop call.

    Assuming I misplayed preflop like the Q-Q here, then let's reconsider. The preflop raising "rock" checks a 9-7-2 rainbow flop with a bunch of callers behind him and $70 or so in the pot. EP1 shoves for $27 and gets 3 callers, so pot is now about $175. "The Rock" shoves for $220, or $193 more than the all-in to make the pot $395. The first 2 callers fold and it's up to the button who has Q-Q and is getting a little over 2 to 1 to make a call. Based just on that, I lean towards call. But, even further what does "the rock's" action so far tell us?
    1) he raised small preflop, got a ton of callers.
    2) he checked a 9 high, unconnected rainbow flop
    3) After an extra $100 bloats the pot, he shoves for $220

    Based on #1, he's got a good hand
    Based on #2, he either doesn't love his hand or he's getting sneaky with a set
    Based on #3, he probably doesn't want action

    What does that all add up to? I'd say a hand that is better than top pair but vulnerable to one of the 3 callers sucking out. Therefore, I'm putting him on less than A-A and more than a pair of 9s. So, I'd say his range is precisely 10-10, J-J, Q-Q and K-K. Since we know that the button has Q-Q, that hand is less likely based strictly on the distribution of cards. Also, a true "rock" would probably lead the flop with K-K because he values big pairs and doesn't want to let A-7 or A-2 suited beat him by giving them a cheap turn card. So, that discounts K-K a bit. So, I'd read villain's most likely holdings as 10-10 or J-J, with K-K less likely. Based on that I'd call.

    Basically, I think the person with Q-Q made 4 mistakes on this hand
    1) not re-raising preflop
    2) not re-raising post flop after the all-in and 2 calls
    3) folding to "the rock's" shove
    4) showing Q-Q after the fold

    Other than that, I think he player the hand fine (e.g., it seems like he protected his cards and didn't bet out of turn), beyond that I really can't find anything he did correctly in the hand.

    Now to "the rock." I too would re-categorize this player. I'm fine with a rock raising UTG with 10-10, but this person got 6 callers. I know a lot of $1-2 players don't pay that much attention, but that is a lot of action for "the rock" at the table -- I know I play tight and it's rare for me to get more than 3 callers, even after players have limped. Also, the shove is not a rock move at all. A real rock is going to check-fold or maybe check-call that flop. This person knows he plays tight and got aggressive to steal a pot after sensing weakness. Yes, the shove is designed to get a hand like like A-7 suited to fold and avoid a suckout in a big pot. But, it is also the kind of bet that could make a hand like J-J or even Q-Q fold. I think what you've got is someone who tight and only moderately aggressive, but smart enough to use that image from time to time. I also think that "the rock" read the 3 callers perfectly and knew they were weak -- heck he might have been surprised to see Q-Q fold there.

    Dave